Win by Ignoring 84% of Site Visitors

Where you always try to upgrade and spy with everything around experimentation and conversion and optimization. I’m your host Devianz. I’m a mic marketing manager at VW. A full funnel website experimentation platform.

Today, we have a special guest who I feel a lot of people already know or will know after this presentation. Welcome Rishi from frictionless commerce. Hi, Davian. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here today.

And I’m putting together this is a this is something brand new that we’ve been working on for the last, you know, 7, 8 months now. So I’m very excited to share it for the very first time with the with the VWO audience.

Awesome. Before we start with the actual discussion, I want to let attendees know that you too can participate in this discussion. Go to webinar does not allow me to switch on your cameras, but I can switch on your mics.

So do share on your thoughts on the questions being discussed. Send me a request using the chat or the questions box from the control panel, and I’ll be happy to unmute you. Rishi. Please take it away. Awesome.

Well, guys, welcome, everyone who has joined this event today. Oops. What happened? Something has happened. Just a second. Oh, there we go. Welcome, everyone who’s joining in today, and You can see from the can you hear me, Debbie?

Just a second. I think there’s some lag in on your screen. Can you please switch back to the presentation? Yeah. So am I not in I am presentation board.

Am I not? No. Your deck the desktop is visible to me as well. So I think that’s let me see what’s happening. Just a second. Yep. Interesting. So you’re saying you’re still seeing my desktop? It means he was going on over here.

It’s it’s a bit half a presentation and half desktop. I just made it Okay. What about now? It’s still? Yes. Still left me. Mhmm. Interesting. I’m so sorry about this. Okay. Let me see. I don’t know. Okay. Interesting.

Still still? I think it’s fine for representatives. Yeah. It’s fine for me now. Okay. I’m sorry about that. Please take it away. Alright, guys. Sorry. Well, you know, the the golden rule is every good presentation starts with a glitch.

So we’ve gone through Agledge. Hopefully, it’s the only 1. So guys, as you can hear from see for my title, I’m gonna talk about something that is that is kind of controversial, and I hope there’s gonna be tons of value in it.

And I think as I go through the presentation, you also will begin to see the the the logic behind what I’m saying.

But, really, my bold statement is that in order to win the conversion game, you need to we need to have the courage to ignore 84 percent of our audience.

What do I mean by this? And I’m gonna cover this. So let’s start off by, obviously, I don’t know what your individual conversion rates are, so I don’t want to, you know, make an assumption.

But let’s just for the purpose of presentation, assume you have a conversion rate of 4 percent, which means 4 percent of people that come to your website pull out their credit cards and buy the products that you are selling.

Now assuming this conversion rate, this tells us a couple of things.

Now what happens is it’s very natural with a 4 percent conversion rate say, natural for the CEO to come in or for you to sell tell yourself that listen, okay, I’m converting 4 percent of my audience.

I need to relentlessly focus and I need to go after the remaining 96 percent. This is a very natural very natural thought, but let’s look at it from the from the perspective of reality.

The reality is that 80 percent of people that come to our website will simply not buy our product or will not buy the service we’re selling.

Even nike dot com, the great nike dot com, that spend billions of dollars building a brand, a real valuable brand over the last 30, 40 years can’t convert 80 percent of visitors.

And so I think it’s really, really important to kind of understand this because this then open it.

Right now, it seems like they are sacrificing such a big audience. But I’m gonna show you how this actually brings our focus it laser focuses us. So 4 percent of people are currently buying 80 percent of people will never buy.

That leaves us with 16 percent of audience. Now what’s unique about this audience is that these people are leaning in with interest. They are engaging with our image galleries.

They’re going through all of the images we have on the product page. They’re reading our product descriptions. They are watching the videos that we have on the product page or all across the funnel. They’re even reading our reviews.

However, when you look at the other end of the equation, because as a you know, as the conversion optimization team, the marketing team, the management team, All of this activity is good, but what we really care about is what’s happening on the other end, we find there’s no sale.

And so to me, this is the problem worth solving.

So what’s happening is that something is holding them back. Something is holding them back from enjoying your product. You sell this incredible product that can improve people’s lives It can allow them to make more progress.

It can improve their health. It can do all of these wonderful things. But if they are interested, but they don’t get a chance to try a product, they’ll never get to get the benefits from it.

So this audience that’s being held back, that something is holding the back. We call these people healthy skeptics. And if you look at it from that perspective, you realize that they need they need a little more convincing.

We already know that they’re interested because we’ve seen them leaning with interest. But what we don’t know is what kind of convincing do they need, but we need some kind of convincing to get them over the conversion hill.

So I’m gonna propose to you and present to you the perfect plan, and here’s what it is. 4 percent of people are currently buying and 16 percent, which is the healthy skeptics, we need to figure out a way to go after this audience.

And this is quite an interesting if you just look at this visual, you’ll see that this group of 16 percent is 4 times bigger than the audience we are currently converting. So it’s a very juicy juicy segment to go after.

Even though we are sacrificing 80 percent, we still left to something that’s quite interesting. Now, I’m gonna propose some of the controversial here which is redesigns are not the way to go forward.

Because when you redesign, you are potentially disturbing the conversions that are coming from that 4 percent of people that are buying. And this is something that is a problem.

What I want to do is I want to construct a solution that allows me to to protect my current conversion rate. So if your conversion rate is 2 percent or 4 percent or 5 percent whatever it is, that is where all the revenue is coming from.

So we have to at first protect that conversion rate while simultaneously targeting figuring out a way to speak to these remaining 16 percent of people. How do we do this?

So the idea is to add call to actions across your funnel, that subtle call to actions across your funnel that allow people that need more convincing to raise their hands up while not disturbing the people that don’t need more convincing.

Now here’s an example. So this is a product page. And if you notice this, there’s a little link. It’s a very small link. It’s called explore the signs. This this is what I mean by a subtle call to action.

And when you click on it, we take you to a private room. Now, of course, 1 of the principles, the evergreen principles in conversion optimization is if someone is at step a, don’t take them to another page.

So I like to keep them on the same page, which is why when you click on the link, we show a light box. So we’re taking showing them new content but we’re not taking them away from this page.

I’m actually going to show you a live example. So here is the product page. Here is the link I talked about. And when you click on it, it shows up as a pop up like this.

So it’s got lots and lots of content. The page had very little content. This is this is what I mean. So we’ve kept them on the page. The user always knows that the pages in the background, but we are surfacing this new content to them.

So that’s that’s that’s that’s the method we’re using. Now the question, of course, is I know all of you guys are thinking like, okay, Rishi.

You’ve taught us a mechanism to talk to this very specific audience without disturbing the people that are buying, what do I talk to them about, and I’m glad you asked that question.

So when you once the pop up is activated, we need to figure out what we should focus on them. So the first thing, there are many things we can focus on, many flavors. 1 version might be to have a long explanation.

The example I showed you had a very long explanation. This is something we tested multiple variations on. 1 version could be short and snappy. Because I don’t really know what’s holding back the audience.

I don’t even know what they need to hear in order to pull out their credit card, but I know that there is something that’s holding back. So my My job now is to figure out what’s holding them back.

1 version, we could do focus on demonstration of expertise, proving to buyers, why we are experts in this type of problem or what makes our product, you know, so much more accurate or effective versus competitors.

In 1 version, we could talk about our origin story, why we started this problem, why we even went on this journey to solve this problem, what all we encountered along the way.

We can talk about a unique point of view, like Dyson famously has a very specific point of view, vacuum cleaners.

They have a very a specific point of view, and their founder believed that things should simply work properly. That was the frustration that he had with his vacuum cleaner, and that’s how he started Dyson.

So maybe that’s something that we can use to communicate and connect with our audience. And we can mix and match. 1 version might be demonstration expertise, and the original story.

So all of these combinations, we can kind of test multiple variations on to figure out the right version And really what we’re trying to do in very simple terms is we’re trying to find the right combination to break into a safe.

I don’t know I know that the safe can be broken into. I don’t know what the combination is, so I want to spend more time testing different variations.

How do we know we’ve cracked it? So what the statistics do and this is what the VWO product does is it allows us to convert an opinion into statistical proof.

What it does is it converts, you know, a discussion like, oh my, this concept feels like it’s doing really great into Oh, wow.

This conversation this this version has improved sales by 14. 61 percent with 98. 5 percent statistical confidence. This is what we want to do. We want scientific evidence that what we are testing is actually moving the needle.

And this is again a screenshot from what the v double o tool allows us to. This is why it’s so powerful. Now let’s just consider for a moment what happened. We protected our current conversion rate.

This is of critical importance. We also created a mechanism for people that need more convincing to raise their hands. And finally, On Click, we displayed a hyper targeted statistically valid validated needle moving sales pitch to them.

And from my perspective, I can’t think of anything that is more lethal in marketing in terms of getting in terms of moving the needle.

If you really think about what we are really doing is it’s like reading the shopper’s mind, seeing what they need to convert, and then showing them exactly that content in order to get them to buy.

So guys, this presentation, I’ve made it intentionally. I wanted to keep it short, because I’m hoping that as questions come in, we can go back and discuss certain other aspects of it.

But this is this is essentially my my key idea, which is to again to recap is to ignore 80 percent of people, which we know we will never convert under any circumstance.

Recognize that 4 percent of people are already buying, so there’s nothing really we can do for their audience. They’re already buying from us, and really they’re focusing on that 16 percent audience.

That is the universe that we’re trying to go after. And step 1 of the process is to create a mechanism. It’s not about creating the content, but create a mechanism because not everyone cares, not everyone needs more help.

So I don’t want to disturb people that don’t need help, but the people that do need help I want to create a mechanism for them to raise their hand up and say, yes, I need help.

I’m confused about this. I don’t buy your claim. I’m skeptical I think your prices are too high.

I don’t think your product is gonna solve my problem. I’m wondering if I should look at other competitors or if I should buy your product, these are all the types of questions that these skeptical people have, and we need a mechanism.

We don’t want to bombard everyone with this content because that makes the page too long. It makes it, you know, we’re diluting our messaging. We want to be very surgical and only show this message to people that say, you know what?

I’ve looked at your mattress. I think you’re you’ve got lots of reviews, but I’m just not convinced that I should take the risk of buying your mattress. Remember, we think about risk in terms.

I think the way we think about risk is incorrect. So if you sell a mattress, and if you have a 90 day return policy, free return policy, we assume we’ve eliminated all the risk for the buyer. That’s not true.

I still have to by the mattress, try it out for 90 days or 60 days or whatever. It is then contact your customer service request a pickup. Now I’m thinking to myself, will this pickup happen easily? Will it not happen easily?

If you sell a small product and I can return it, I still have to go go to the FedEx office to return your products. There’s still a lot of friction. So what I need to do is I need to construct a sales pitch that addresses that anxiety.

The reality is that we don’t know what that anxiety is and which is the reason why we have to test multiple variations, and I’ve given you guys a few flavors.

So anyway, Divyansh, I’ve actually finished my presentation. I would I I know it’s short, and I’m happy to discuss about more details or questions that people specifically have, but this is essentially it.

Definitely, Rishi, does this Ethan has raised his hand? Then I’ll be unmuting you. And please feel free to have your dialogue and ask a question to reach you directly. Hello, Ethan. I’ve unmuted you. Please go ahead with your question.

It looks like there’s not there. Okay. Okay. Fennel has raised his hand. Ethan, I’ll be unmuting you. You can drop your question the questions panel and we can take it after Fennel’s question property.

Hello, Fennel. How you you can Right. Yeah. Please go ahead. Thanks to receive thanks for the presentation. I do follow you regularly on LinkedIn.

I just wanted to ask You know, I also inspired by your ideas and tried adding 1 link on it was a skincare brand. And I was trying to, you know, there was a there was a text called clinically proven reasons.

And I just linked that to a doc where there was a scientific study. Right? And the basically, the idea was if users are skeptical, they can they’ll just click on it. But there was very little interaction with those links.

Just wanted to ask how can we make it, let’s say, more prominent, And, you know, there are also very less users actually scroll down after the add to cart sync here. That is very common in e commerce product pages.

As well. Right? He asked him. He did want to be opening all of that. That’s a great question. I’ll just show you an example. I think that’s a very, very good question. So here is the here is the scenario.

So on this page on this page, you’ll notice actually there’s 1 CTO over here and I’ve added another small link over here. What’s interesting? I’m gonna show you guys something very interesting. Can you guys still see my screen?

Yeah? Okay. Okay. So I’m gonna show you something very interesting. So if I click on this link over here, you’ll notice that the pop up appears And if I close this, I’m gonna show you something fascinating.

Do you notice that the link over here now disappeared? I’m gonna refresh the page so you can see So you can see it again. So now the link is back, and this link is here as well. So your point is exactly correct.

Not everyone is going to notice this. Some people will ignore that, and so we showed again. I’ll show you something else. If I click on this 1, pop up appears again. But now if I scroll up, this link has disappeared.

So this is just 2 links here that we’ve added on this page. Typically, we add 4 or 5 very subtle CTAs exactly for the reason you mentioned. Which is that not everyone is going to notice that at that location and we have a choice.

We can either make the CT a very big, which I actually don’t like to do, Because now what’s happening is we are running in the risk of pulling the attention of people that would have bought the product anyway.

And I don’t want to show them extra information if they are already convinced. So the idea is to be subtle but then to repeat it multiple times.

In this case, we have repeated it twice. But very often we repeat it 5 or 6 times. But what we do is we set it up as a conditional element. So basically the CSS family name is exactly the same.

And we use JavaScript that says, if any 1 of those elements has been activated, then hide the subsequent element so that the person is not seeing the same CTA once they’ve clicked on the 1 on top in the bottom, but that’s the solution we have.

I hope that answers your question.

Yeah. Yeah. I see. Thanks so much for that. You’re welcome. Thank you so much, Fennel. Okay? Next up is a is a hand raise from Jimmy. Jimmy, I’ll be unmuting you and you can probably take your it looks like Jumia’s pulled his hand back.

Jay Chan wants to know how do you approach knowing what the concerns my shoppers have in mind? And he does not have any mic, therefore, this question.

No. No. That’s great. That’s great. And I think I think this might be an easy method. So so Jay Chan, this this is a very good question. And so there’s something very controversial about what we do.

And at least initially in the project, we actually don’t do a lot of research and you’re exactly right, so I don’t actually know what the consumers objections are And if you’re selling a very specific type of product, if you’re selling, let’s say, an ebike or a health supplement, it’s very true that people that are buying a health supplement or not buying a health supplement might have some very specific concerns and objections or things that they care about that are very unique to that product category.

And if I’m not doing research, how how do I know what those things are? So the reality is that we actually feel we can get to 80 percent of the finish line without doing research.

What do I mean by this? Well, when I’m buying a product, whether I’m buying an e bike or I’m buying of, you know, consulting service or whatever it is, there are certain concerns that are universal for all types of consumers.

And what we have done in our copywriting is we’ve focused in on those universal concerns. Now even within those universal concerns, we don’t actually know what the proportions are of for what different shoppers care about.

Depending on your price point, depending on the risk factor for the buyer if you’re selling a supplement. If it costs 10 dollars, it’s very inexpensive, but you’re asking me to put this in my body.

So my skepticism is very high. On the other hand, if I’m selling an air conditioning unit where it costs 5000 dollars, that’s a high average order value, and so my my concern is higher.

So we don’t know in what proportion people care about the details. So to answer your question, we actually exclude objections that are very, very specific, we focus on universal themes.

What do I mean by this? Well, I know that some people really really care about technical details. And I know that I know that 1 of the things I know is that people want to buy from experts.

This is a universal principle. I have never come across a situation, almost never come across a situation where the consumer is not buying because of the seller’s expertise.

When I when a consumer is buying a Dyson vacuum cleaner, we are buying a Dyson vacuum cleaner because Dyson knows 500 times more about cleaning dirt and dust. Than I do, and it is that expertise that gets me to buy.

But this is true for all products. Expert is a universal phenomenon. The second thing I’ll say is price justification. I have never seen a scenario in e commerce where the consumer is not looking for more justification on prices.

Origin stories also matter a lot. So for imagine if I’m selling a product that is a health supplement that reduces bloating I can present expertise and say, look, I’m a medical doctor.

I’ve seen hundreds of patients that have had this problem. I’ve tested hundreds of combinations and I’ve found the exact right formulation to reduce bloating.

That is absolutely a good strategy. But you can layer on top of this also that my wife and I get I’m saying I’m assuming this is all factually true, but, you know, my own personal journey.

Right? My wife had bloating and I wanted to solve that problem, and so I went on this journey.

What that does is that it makes the reader feel like we’re part of the same tribe. So these are very universal concepts. And we what we’ve done is we’ve identified 9 such universal themes and we use that to construct our sales pitch.

So we acknowledge that we are still going to miss out in the 20 percent like we can only get 80 percent to the finish line. But the benefit is The way to think about a channel is that I’m at 0 right now.

If I can get to 80 percent, I can improve my cash flow, I can clearly demonstrate that conversion rates are going up, I can demonstrate that this is all based on the work that we are doing.

Now it’s much easier for me to say, okay, I know this works. Let’s now invest in even more research so we can specifically understand how to get to the final 20 percent.

So from my perspective, this is still the best path, and I recognize your question concern that Well, how do you kind of how do you know what what specifically talk about?

I focus on universal themes. Price is always a concern. Changing habits. This is another 1. Changing habits is a universal concern.

Right? If I’m if I’m if I’ve got a spring bed, and I’m selling a mattress that is a foam mattress. It’s not just a question of buying the mattress, but like, okay, well, I’m sacrificing a spring mattress.

For a foam mattress, you know, I have to fire what I have to hire something new, and I have to, as a copywriter, give you a path and explain to you why this sense. So those are some universal themes that we kind of play with every time.

I hope that answers your question. Awesome. Thank you so much, Chant for that question. Thank you, Rishi, for answering that question. I’ll be unmuting Thomas. Please go ahead with your question, Thomas. Just a second.

Hi, Thomas. Can you hear us? Okay. Thomas has all also dropped in the question Hello? Oh, there he is. Please go ahead, Thomas. Alright. So I had to unmute myself. Alright. So thank you, Rishi. That was very interesting as a concept.

I’m an email marketer, and what is in my mind is how can I apply this fascinating concept to email marketing, so maybe ideally track the link the clicks and, you know, identify the behavior of people?

What’s your opinion about? That’s a really good question.

And actually, I’ve done lots of thought experiments about email marketing. I will answer this specifically in the context of a welcome series, but I’m sure as an email marketing, you can you can cross apply this in a bunch of ways.

So we’ve actually done work applying this exact same principle for welcome series. And what we do is just like what I talked about over here with the pop ups and there are different things.

So what I typically will do is I’ll ask myself, okay, for this type of purchase, What would be the principal thing, the first thing I’d like to focus on?

Let’s let’s just make up an example and say, demonstration expertise is the thing that we want to focus on. So what I would do is in that welcome series, I will, in the first email, I would really focus in on demonstration of expertise.

On the bottom of the email, I would I would ask the buyer that did this address your concern? And I, of course, and there are 2 buttons. Yes and no.

If they click yes, right, I’ve now collected a data point that says, you know what, Mike, the bet I placed, that consumers, that aren’t buying, because remember when someone signs up for our email and they don’t make a purchase, that’s primarily because they felt they needed more information and so the email is a way for them to kind of learn more about us.

So that would be a confirmation if they ticked on the yes button. It will be a confirmation that my email series is correct, and then I can maybe continue adding more content that talks about demonstration expertise.

However, if they picked on no, then I know that that was the wrong thing to focus on, and I can program it. Again, I’m not assuming I don’t know how to program this, but I’m assuming it’s not that complicated.

On the back end, I can program it where I can say, okay, the next email now, Nietzsche should talk about the origin story and our unique point of view.

And then again at the bottom of the email, I would ask I would ask the consumer, like, did this address the question that the thing that was holding you back?

And again, I’m not sure that’s the right framing of it. That’s something of course you might have to think about.

But I think this can be very easily adapted for exactly that same for that exactly that same flow. I don’t know about statistics of AB testing it like I would with BWO on the front end, but I think the same principle should apply.

At least, theoretically, it seems like it should work, and I’ve done a project for a client in the past where we’ve actually constructed this that way. Thank you.

I mean, this is very interesting. You know, I have a lot of new ideas now, and you helped spark these ideas, and I’m gonna give them a try. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you, Thomas. Thank you for your question. Next up just a second.

Yeah. Next up is a question from Jack Martin. Jack, I’ll be unmuting you. Please go ahead with your question. Hi, Jack. Can you hear us? Yeah. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Thanks for that, Rishi. That’s great.

So my question is just in and around basically it’s saying like the 16 percent, I’m guessing a lot of these folks, they’ve got different anxieties in mind, maybe different things that are gonna need to convince them to convert in the funnel.

So I suppose my questions then in and around you know, how do you plan that journey? What’s the best way to do that?

Because presuming it’s different entry points that you’ve got to look at, you know, so when it comes in from this advert, we maybe need to them something different from, you know, customer a versus customer b versus customer c.

So great question. And I’ll respond with this philosophically.

What we have what we do is we actually don’t look at that context. We intentionally don’t look at the context of the buyer because it actually then it kind of blocks us in. So what I’m looking for are universal themes.

So you are correct. Depending on what the AdWords showed them and their and how that might have created some anxiety, there might be an explanation that is a really good objection busting mechanism for that AdWords.

The problem there is that Now I have all of these different funnels, all of these different paths that people are taking to kinda come into, and that gives me lots and lots of different a context, and it’s very difficult for me personally to construct a pitch or diff construct multiple pitches for these different use cases.

So what I do again, there is limitations in what we’re talking about, but what I do is I look for universal themes.

And what we found after running like 700 experiments is and it’s really weird, but things like the origin story have a huge impact on purchase intent. Things like demonstration expertise have a huge impact.

So while I so my thesis is that a lot of these things can can can utilize many of the objections. But it’s to your point, there might be certain specific types of objections that people have that these sales pitches don’t neutralize.

So the solution is let’s first use these pitches to neutralize or to counteract 80 percent of objections.

If and use that increased cash flow, increased revenue to reinvest into research that is, like, essentially, I’m trying to create like a stepladder system where right now we’re at level 0, I wanna just get to this first step.

I’m not concerned about step 7.

I’m interested in just getting to first step with the least amount of energy and with the highest amount of certainty. Once I get there, I recognize that there’s gonna be a new set of problems and a new set of opportunities.

And so once I get to the 80 percent mark, now I and if I can show that we’ve increased our our revenue efficiency by 30 percent, it’s very easy for me to make the argument that, hey, let’s invest this 30 percent into really understanding specifically what those objections are and you can kind of So that’s the way I would approach it.

Thanks. And if I can maybe be cheeky and have a second follow-up question to that, I suppose you’ve said, you’ve you’ve listed a few things here that are kind of universal truths, so you know, try some of them.

But is it then fair to say that some of those universal truths need to be applied at different points in the journey, as in a lot of it might even have to appear on the landing page to create initial bounce rate, versus something needs to be shown side by side with the product because that’s maybe more of the add to cart purchase point.

Yeah. So that’s a great question.

So the way we do it is, you know, I’m kind of morally opposed to making changes across the entire funnel, primarily because, like you said, you know, should we be showing the origin story at the top of the funnel, should we maybe show the demonstration expertise, 2 steps down?

These are open ended questions. I don’t have the answer to, and we could spend months kind of planning this, the bigger question is, how are we measuring the efficacy of this?

Because if I’m kind of measuring the efficacy based on AB testing, then, you know, it’s it gets a little complicated because it’s like, well, did we get this lift because of the origin story at the top of the funnel?

Or did we get it because we added demonstration expertise on the product page, it gets a little noisy. So my recommendation actually is that just think about healthy skeptics.

This is the group, the 16 percent group, as 1 cluster. Now I recognize within healthy skeptics, there are different people, there are different there are different variations.

But I want to treat this as 1 cluster. And so to me, I just want the healthy skeptic to see 1 treatment and I wanna see how that treatment affected them.

That treatment could be talking about 1 singular thing. That treatment could be talking about multiple things, but I want I want it to be 1 treatment.

It’s kinda like, you know, if I’m creating a movie, I wanna create 1 type of 1 very specific movie everyone is seeing the exact same movie. So if the movie fails, bombs in the box office, I know that the movie sucked.

If I created 10 flavors of this movie, and release them to different markets. It’s very difficult to know. It’s very difficult to actually measure to see what what worked and what didn’t work.

So my view is that across the entire funnel, instead of embedding the copy or embedding the original story or embedding whatever it is, all I’m doing is I’m adding a subtle call to action across the entire funnel, and that subtle call to action, there are multiple of them.

But all I’m doing in a very, very simple in very, very simple ways, I’m asking the buyer, basically, are you skeptical?

Do you need more convincing? Are you not sold yet? Because That person is the person I want to communicate with, and I’m not concerns I’m not concerned about understanding, like, what element of my sales pitch was relevant.

I just want to treat that entire audience as 1 cluster and then say, okay, because skeptical people typically have the same types of skepticism.

So it it the way I look at it is that we are, again, we are at most organizations are at level 0.

I think it’s absolutely true that at some point you want to incorporate a high degree of sophistication, but I think that for now my focus is how do I get from 0 to 1. And in order to do that, I want to simplify things.

Because the more complexity and the conditional logic and all the variations that I built into it, the harder it becomes for me to measure to understand specifically what made an impact.

But if I have just 1 where just 1 sales pitch that appear that is shown to everyone who interacts with the call to action across my entire funnel.

And if my conversion rates don’t go up, I know my sales pitch sucks, and I can then go back and I can rework it.

And so that kind of clean binary black and white way of measuring impact is is what I like to do, especially because I’m trying to I don’t even know what is going to resonate with the buyer at this stage.

Super helpful, man. Thanks. Appreciate it. You’re welcome. That for your question. Ethan, I’ll try and unmute you next. Let me know if you if it works out for you this time. Hello, Rishi.

Can you hear me? I certainly can’t eat a nice stove. Yeah. Good to see things. You always appreciate your your your content and your perspective. And what I love about your approach here is that it is, it is so surgical. Right?

You are not what you are not doing with this approach, is coming in and saying to the web design team, the UX team, the content team, we have to build a complete meeting page, a complete meeting new experience, and we’re, like, we’re, you know, we’re doing we’re doing a a radical redesign.

I love that this is so so surgical in its approach.

You’re isolating that variable, is my sales pitch effective or not effective? The question I have, though, is is sort of, like, in the in the evolution of a conversion rate optimization practice at 1 of your clients.

At some point, they are going to do some big redesign. Right? They’re gonna rebrand, they’re gonna say, like, oh, our website needs to face like blah blah blah.

How do you how do you adapt your approach to help them reduce degrees of freedom and constrain the million variables that they’re playing when they’re going through a bigger redesign process in service of creating the best converting experience.

It’s a it’s a real problem. So our our cop out solution is when a it’s kind of bizarre to me.

Right? I mean, that we are like you said, we are talking about isolating variables, and we’re talking about this surgical approach, and we’re talking about this systematic methodical way of doing things, and we show clients results.

But then every 6 months or every couple of years, clients have this itch where they want to, and there could be external factors that are at play.

There could be some technical challenges that’s causing them to shift platforms that cause a redesigned We don’t have a solution for that.

So typically, we actually take a pause when that’s happening and then resume testing after that after that is completed.

But what I would typically tell clients is that listen, you know, the problem with adjusting 360 variables is that we might, in that process, have also killed some of the conversion drivers that were working really well for us.

Now unfortunately, you know, it’s something that they have to make a decision on, but I have a fiduciary responsibility to at least let them know that that’s a potential risk that they’re running.

But I don’t have a solution for it yet, you know, despite I’m not very persuasive, I guess, because I have not been able to convince clients to to pause on a redesign, but but it is a problem.

And so we we we typically would take a pause and re read resume testing once the so the way I can look at it is that a redesign or the way the website is designed is kind of like gravity it’s there. I have to acknowledge it.

So I don’t ever come back with opinions on like, hey, I think your funnel isn’t structured optimally, Or for example, if a website has if they’re driving a certain action, like let’s say they’re driving subscriptions, I don’t ever come back to them and say, I don’t think subscriptions is a thing to focus on, primarily because that’s a strategic decision that was made a long time ago or that was made outside of us.

So I’m basically saying, okay, this is the play that we’re running. This is the fabric that we’re working within. I need to now drive a 20 percent improvement in efficacy.

Within this irrespective of my opinion about, is this the right fabric? That’s that’s that’s that’s for the that’s a CEO’s burden. So I’m just trying to improve I’m just relentlessly focused on efficiency.

So while I recognize that a redesign is not a smart thing from the lens through which I see the world, there there are different lenses and from their perspective, it may make sense.

So the solution for me is to take a break and come back after 6 months. Once they’ve stabilized the new website, and then jump back in and drive a 20 percent improvement by working with that new website that they have.

Fair. Appreciate it, Rishi. Thank you. Absolutely. Digjans, there might also be some typed out question some people might not want to come on audio, so please share those questions with me as well.

I I’m just trying to manage the type out questions as well as the hand raises. Jimmy is probably next. Jimmy, I’ll be unmuting you. Do ask your question directly to Rishi. Can you hear us, Jimmy? Hi, Rishi. Can you hear me? Hi, Jimmy.

Perfect. Excellent. I was just wondering tools that how does this scale? So for instance, the organization I work for that has a million visitors a month. I’m expected to believe that 200000 people can be treated as 1 homogenous group.

In the same way, we’ve got 10000000 visitors. Can we say we have 2000000 of those we can treat those exactly the same. We don’t have to vary funnels depending on behavioral figures.

Do you believe this 20 percent model can just scale infinitely? Well, I mean, from my perspective, the answer is yes, but I’ll just I’ll I’ll I’ll kind of I I do understand where you’re coming from.

So look, I I fully recognize that within this audience that we’ve identified, there is a lot of variations. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of differences.

But there’s also commonalities. I’m making the argument. So the way I kind of think about it is that my only op My only objective is to outrun the control or as we say internally destroy the control.

So the control essentially is what the client has right now, right, where they have a page, they have a funnel that’s converting at 4 percent.

I I recognize that to your point, Jimmy, that if we can figure out within this 200000 people, if we can figure out the many, many clusters that we have.

Let’s say there are 20 clusters of different different use cases, different anxieties, different objections, different, you know, concerns, and construct sales pitches for all of them, we would essentially 5 x our conversion rate to 20 percent.

I don’t care about that 5 x. Right?

So the way I’m looking at it is that if I can take that 4 percent conversion rate and demonstrate to the management team, statistically demonstrate that I can make improve the efficiency from 4 percent and make it, let’s say, you know, 4.

8 percent or 4. 4 0. 4 percent or whatever that number is, that is a great first step. So to answer your question, you are correct.

This is not going to work indefinitely, but I think it’s a great first step. And I think what’s gonna happen is when you get to that 20 percent lift, then what’s gonna happen is you would have learned something new.

It would have reoriented our thinking a little bit. So essentially, I want to continue focusing on common things that are holding people back.

And I’m very, very convinced about this that while there are very specific reasons why people don’t buy a Toyota, there are many, many, there are I bet Toyota team has a hundred different reasons, very big clusters of reasons why people don’t buy a Toyota, I can also tell you that there is this 1 reason that is big enough, maybe it’s 10 percent of their entire audience, and I can go after that audience till the sun burns out.

And I think it’s a huge market.

So I do recognize, theoretically, there are limitations in what I’m saying and because they’re like you like you said, you cannot assume that those 200000 people that are not buying up, not buying for the same set of reasons.

I do think that within that 200000 audience, there’s going to be I’m just making this number up, 80000 people sorry.

Well, yeah, 80000 people that are actually not buying it for 1 or few groups of reasons, and I wanna continue monetizing the heck out of that audience till I’ve reached a local maxima.

And at some point, theoretically, I will reach a point where I’m like, oh, you know what?

Further refinements of the sales pitch to the healthy skeptics is actually not moving the needle anymore. At that point, hopefully, I’m smart enough to figure out something else we can focus on. Or maybe some research to kind of help.

We have we haven’t covered this in this presentation, but we have a technique called active participation where what we do is we when we show a sales pitch, we actually ask the audience, we kinda show them a description, then we ask them, like, what’s the principle I wanna understand more about them.

So if they are if we’re selling a juicer, I’ll give them my sales pitch, and then below that, I’ll say, Help me help select a feature about yourself so I can better personalize this.

And 1 of the options could be I’m new to juicing. I’ve been to juicing for a long time, but I’ve never heard about your brand. Third option could be that I know nothing about juicing, and I’m I’m looking to learn.

And so based on their selections, we can further personalize it. So there are many ways for us to actually within this framework itself, you know, get get a lot more conversion juice.

But again, starting from 0, I’m trying to find the the most obvious no brainer way to get to a 20 percent improvement, and this this is what has worked well for us.

But I do recognize your point, GB, that within this 200000 people audience, there’s there’s a lot of variety and just trying to focus on the 80000 people that have tend to have very similar reasons not to buy.

Like I’ll give you I’ll give you a great example like even in this presentation or if I think about all the questions that I’ve come up so far, I can see a pretty clear pattern Now this these this pattern doesn’t describe everyone who’s on the webinar, but I’ve identified 1 principle thing that’s that’s a common objection, if I can address this, statistically speaking, there’s a higher likelihood that this is going to have the biggest impact.

While I recognize that there’ll be some listeners that have very specific concerns and questions that I wouldn’t have been able to address by looking at the range of questions that have come up so far.

To me, I hope that answers your question.

And for anyone who has questions that you know, if you guys join my newsletter, I I share ideas every week, and and it it actually comes from my email. So if if there’s a question, you could always send me an email as well.

I’m I I love this topic. Obviously, this is the love of my life. And I I love I love this kind I mean, my whole conversion model is based on dealing with healthy skeptics.

Everyone who’s asking me a question in this webinar, I love those questions because that’s exactly the kind of questions that healthy skeptics have. So I love these questions and I would love to continue this conversation offline.

As well. If someone has follow-up questions, happy to jump on a call as well, because I I truly care about this, and I wanna make sure it makes sense to everyone who’s beat on this webinar.

It’s not just to you know, present a theoretical concept is to actually work through an implementation plan for you guys. Actually, just to add on to your point, Steve does say is that Jimmy sounds like a hellish skeptic.

But moving on, I think there’s 1 more question from Boris. Boris, I’ll be unmuting you. Can please go ahead and ask your question directly.

What else can you hear us? Yeah. Sure. Hi. Hi. I I thought I didn’t have any questions left because everybody already asked all the questions about personalization of the last 14 percent and everything.

So I was going to just say how much I appreciate. You as a role model basically for the conversion rate optimization community. Big fan here. I also invited my But he, Jorge, on the call, he’s here in here somewhere. He’s a big fan.

But then I realized I do have 1, and it’s about the a cool case study about alternatives to pop up so that so that related to what the question just now with the personalization are based on what they’re reading, and then somewhere in the text you have buttons, which I think is a really cool concept.

I just didn’t find it anymore live.

So I couldn’t sign up for the emails from Fakings. Do you know so I think there was this lines up with a few other questions. So do you know if there was, like, a redesign of the website? It was. Yeah.

This goes back to this goes back to this very unfortunate situation that, you know, we’re we’re working in a lab, we’re we’re mad scientist working in a lab, and I guess management teams forget that there’s a lab working on stuff, and so over time, they just you know, they they do redesigns, and I think that page was redesigned and we we lost it.

Do you sometimes, like, go back to these kinds of people and go like, hey, you messed up.

I I should. I actually didn’t realize that it’s not there, but but I’ve I’ve obviously seen this story play out with other clients, and so I will I will I will email their CEO and just let them know. But thank you for bringing it up.

But, yes, but I I am aware of the fact that these things happen all the time because they you know, after a couple of years, there’s a new marketing manager, and they say, hey, what’s a silly link on this product page?

You know, this all this content of the pop up who’s gonna beat this? This makes no sense.

Let’s remove it. And I’m like, oh, great. Yeah. Cool. Then, otherwise, just thank you. And Awesome. I really appreciate how ethical and you are in your approach and also how transparent you are in sharing everything.

Minute. Thank you, Boris. Thank you. Thank you so much, Boris. Thank you so much for your question and the compliment. I think that’d be it.

You can obviously reach out to Rishi directly on his LinkedIn. He’s very vocal there, or on his YouTube. There’s also a scan me link here. And the Yes. Click on the take your smartphones for those of you on your on your computers.

Take a smartphone, go to Chrome browser, and and sign up for my newsletter that I think you guys will find find it to be just like this presentation. But the the difference, of course, is that I keep on sharing examples.

1 of the things that I do is 20 percent of my time. I not only do I improve conversion rates by 20 percent, but spent 20 percent of my time studying crazy marketers out there, and I’m not looking at big websites like Macy’s and all.

I’m actually looking at tiny websites because those are the marketers that have the most freedom to try crazy stuff, and I wanna study what they’re doing, and I wanna see from their experiments what what you know, triggers for ideas, so I keep I keep a database of those insights, and once a week I like to share them.

So I think you guys will get lots of actionable insights there as well.

I think the message here is don’t be a healthy skeptic. Be a con converted user. But yeah. She had 2 more questions. I think that’s just, you know, questions coming in and out. Do you want to take my last question from Eric?

I would be happy to take as many questions. As as people are interested in asking. Okay. That I’ll be unmuting you, Eric. You can go ahead and directly ask a question and probably detail out the other nuances.

Just a second. Yeah. Alright. Hi, Ricky. Thank you for the presentation. I just signed up for your QR code here, and I noticed you’re working on a client very similar to 1 that just came on board for me.

That’s wanting to see some some conversion left for wheelchairs for for dogs. So I was I was curious if you can give me some specifics on what it was you did to boost that converter rate by, I think it was 14 percent of change.

Yeah. So I mean, well, we we did we’ve done a lot of testing for handicap pets over the years. We actually have 4 to 5 case studies from them.

I don’t know what that specific case study is, but I can tell you the general theme that actually did really well for us, So what happened historically was that the company was really focused on talking about how their wheelchairs are customizable.

And the aluminum that they use and how light it is and how comfortable it is and the fact that the dock can pee and poop from the wheelchair itself and, you know, it gives the dog the freedom.

And our big insight was thinking about the this this this wonderful relationship human beings have with their dogs.

And, you know, the wheelchair is bought on the latter half of the dog’s life, So we constructed a sales pitch, kind of pulling at their heartstrings a little bit, talking talking about all the joys that we’ve got from from these pets, And so that was 1 theme that was really effective or was kind of prominent in our whole thing.

Like, essentially, basically saying, look, you’ve you’ve This dog has given you pleasure for tech because we could speculate that, obviously, it’s an older dog.

Not all their not all dogs that need wheelchair or older, but many of them are. And we basically constructed a story that said, look, they’ve given given us so much joy over the last, you know, 5, 6 years, 10 years, whatever it is.

You know, this is our way to kind of show appreciation back to them. So that was 1 thing we played with, but the other thing we played on quite a bit was the origin story.

So in this presentation, I talked about the origin story, that was something that was very central because the entire handicap pet’s team We work with them for many years now for 7, 8 years now.

So we know that every member in their team is, like, very, very connected to the to to the pet community, and we just felt that that story was so I wanted to take the transact I want to take the conversion away from the fact that they are spending a few hundred dollars to buy a customizable wheelchair, which essentially, a commodity is from the from my perspective, but take it to the fact that these people behind meet the people that are behind the wheelchair.

And those 2 themes seem to work really well for us.

So I think that case study you’re talking about was was based on some copy testing we did around that idea. Got it. Thank you very much. 2 for your question, Eric. Next up, is just a second. Is Darshan? Darshan, I’ll be unmuting you.

You can directly have that conversation with Vishi. Doesn’t can you hear us? Oh, looks like the I can hear you. Hey, Rishi. Thanks thanks for all the insights and all the cool. Nuggets of wisdom that you shared on LinkedIn.

So my question was there is a bit of cognitive dissonance in in 1 piece of advice that you’ve given. It goes against quote unquote conventional wisdom, I guess, which is we present a lot of text to customers.

And conventional wisdom is you try not to overwhelm customers to too much text and you try and give them sort of like little bits and pieces of information as in when they need it.

So how do you reconcile the the sort of argument that you’re trying to make with that conventional wisdom? Great question. I can answer this in a couple of ways.

So First of all, when we construct the long form sales pitch, like I showed as an example, we actually design it. You know how news you know, again, I wanna just be honest with everyone over here, guys.

None of the ideas that I have are original. Everything that I talk about, I have stolen from 1 industry or the other. So my copywriting technique is actually stolen from salespeople.

This is what salespeople do when they are prospecting customers. I’m using their exact same methodology. My copy dating long form copy is stolen from direct response marketers from a hundred years ago, but also from journalists.

So if you read a New York Times in-depth article, they have a headline and then they have this super long article. So what the what newspapers do is we call an inverse pyramid.

So they structure the content in such a way that the most important stuff is on top, but then for people who are diggers who want even more context and even like more detailed version of it, they can continue reading.

So not everyone who reads the newspaper article is reading. In fact, 50 percent of people probably only read, you know, I don’t know, 1 1 fourth of it or 1 fifth 1 third of it.

But they get the full story. So it’s very intentionally constructed as an inverse pyramid. And what good copywriters do is we create exit ramp and this is what we do in our copy.

So for example, in that in that pop up I showed for that cosmetic brand, if you actually read the copy, you’ll realize that even if you read 1 third of it it actually it’s it’s a complete story.

And then if you continue reading, then it’s another story, but it’s an add on story. It doesn’t take away from the principal story and it the second story makes sense by itself as well.

And so that’s how we construct it. Now that’s 1 part of the answer. The other part of the answer I should give mentioned is that You know, I think this whole idea of copy needs to be shortened is is fully nonsense.

I think that if I’m as a marketer, I’m objectively asking myself that, you know, how much copy should I give, I can very easily say, yeah, keep the copy short.

But if I’m a consumer, when I look at my actual behavior, I have never bought a product where I’ve said, you know, okay, I’ve read 4 bullet points.

I’ve said, okay, I’m sold. I spent hours researching it. I’m going through the reviews, I’m looking at the product images. I’m spending a lot of time researching.

I’m watching YouTube videos for reviews of the product. So I think this idea that people will not spend 20 minutes reading my sales pitch, I don’t buy it because I don’t think this is how I consume products.

The other thing I would say is that you know, if you watch Netflix, people this this is a known phenomena, people binge watch Netflix.

It’s not like only 5 percent of people on Netflix do it. This is a very broadly broad phenomena. So why people binge watching 20 hours of of TV shows, you know, those same people are shopping online.

So again, sorry, I I got carried away there. It’s a very bad question, and I just wanna mention here is that there is a distinction between long copy and copy where we are stuffing stuffing extra content. I have no tolerance.

If I go through copy that my that I’ve put together or my teams put together, and I noticed there’s garbage filled in. I would fire that copy right away. It has to have a point, but so I but we don’t worry about the length as much.

So we are sensitive for the length. We want the copy to systematically kind of get shorter and shorter as we do more and more testing. But the idea that if it’s more than 2 paragraphs, people won’t read it that I don’t necessarily buy.

But yes, I obviously if the copy has I kind of look at the sales pitch or the copy as like a chain And if the if any link is weak and and broken, it’s gonna break the attention of the buyer.

So I wanna make sure that there’s nothing in the copy that is an attention tax.

We’d use this term attention tax quite a bit. So as long as there’s no attention tax and we’re not kinda talking about stuff that is irrelevant for the buyer or completely irrelevant by it. I think that’s fine.

I care more about efficacy and I care less about efficiency. So I wanna make sure I construct copy that gets people to pull out their credit card, I don’t really care about other details that that, you know, might play a role.

I wanna kind of focus on the north star, which is getting people to pull out their credit cards and enter their credit card on a website that they’ve never made a purchase in before.

That answers your question. Yeah. Focusing less on the length and more on the quality and structure. I think is sort of the key takeaway and that’s, like, thackled sheet.

Of course. I think there’s 1 last question from Manab. She wanted you Okay. I see there’s a follow-up request that she’ll take it over LinkedIn, but Manab just wanted few tips on b to b SaaS conversions.

And I can personally, you know, vouch for that questions as well. Okay. Oh, so you’re asking me right now, like, what what tips do I have for b to b SaaS? Yep.

That is 1 minor point of time. That’s I mean, the you know, it’s from from I don’t really draw a distinction between these 2 groups. I don’t know why we spend so much time thinking about them as being completely different audiences.

I do recognize that when people buy, like, when I’m buying a project management software, that’s very different than what I’m buying a pair of socks and stuff like that. But I think that the objections are still the same.

So the healthy skeptics are still still skeptical for the same reasons that we are skeptical about personal purchases or consumer purchases, I’m concerned about will this software Will I get enough utilization out of the software?

Will is the price justified?

Will my team use it? Will I have support issues? So those kind of concerns are still is still universal. But I if I to answer to answer 1 specific thing, So I still feel demonstration expertise would be a principal thing.

Like, in fact, I think it’s even more important. Right? If I’m buying a vacuum cleaner, The demonstration expertise only affects me because I’m buying 1 vacuum cleaner.

But if I’m buying a SaaS product, the demonstration expertise is even more important to me because it affects my entire organization.

So I want to make sure if if you’re selling a project management software, I wanna make sure that you have you know everything there is to know and you figure out every way project projects break, that’s that’s the kind of expertise that I want to see demonstrated.

That’s number 1. But the other thing, I think the biggest thing when it comes to buying a SaaS product, and I think this is the most important 1 for SaaS.

Is we are expecting people to fire what they were doing and hire this new solution. So it’s really change of behavior, and so the copy needs to be really focused on changing behavior.

And I think basecamp, as an example, does an exceptional job, in giving constructing a narrative that allows people to change their behavior.

So they kind of frame it in terms of like, there is chaos and disorganization with where you’re at and you’re simply not able to scale the business, and then they their whole pitch is that, you know, we help bring organization to it.

So that change of behavior theme really really resonates.

The other thing I would say for SAS, again, for those of you who are who are hearing me for the first time, I would recommend that you go check out an article that I’ve written on my website called ActiveParticipation.

I can actually show that link over here if it’s active active participation.

And I I think this I think this is a really, really important article and I’ll, you know, I’ll I I guess I can include for any of anyone, this is just go to my website, search for active participation.

You’ll find this, but what we’ve done here is and I think this really applies for b to b SaaS is that different people have different use cases. Some people are buying SaaS product because of because they’re trying to cut costs.

Some people are buying it because they want to kind of, you know, take their team to the next level. And by kind of getting that context and then personalizing the sales pitch for them.

Specifically, I think that’s quite an effective strategy. So I think that would that would be a very effective thing. So I don’t know if I can access chat, but I’ll just include here here is the article.

For those of you who want to learn this Oh, you did. You did. Alright. Very good. Very good. Okay. Okay. Very good. So yeah. So that’s what I would that’s that’s my response about the the B2B SaaS.

Again, I’m happy to discuss this offline if someone has follow-up questions on for b to BIII do believe that the 9 principles that we use for copywriting apply more broadly, and they should work just as well for SaaS.

Of course, I don’t have first hand experience testing it on those environments. Totally agree, Rishi. There are few principles that we all can take away and implement in our own spaces and categories.

Thank you for being so kind to answer all the questions. It was a wonderful presentation and a great experience for me. I hope attendees enjoyed it as well.

You all can personally reach out to Rishi on LinkedIn. He’ll be more than happy to take all all the questions or pass on or email us any of your doubts, and we’ll be more than happy to, you know, connect you with Rishi.

With that being said, thank you all for this session. We’ll see you soon yet again for another v w webinar. Session. And, yeah, have a great day.

Thanks, guys. Thank you very much. Thank you, Rishi. Thank you all. Bye. Rishi can drop off the call. I’ll I’ll just end the webinar. Alright. Thank you, Daiviraj. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Yeah. Take care. Bye. Bye.